Curse

Lourens · Mar 08, 2009, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Great update but that AoR bugs me like to see 1 energy gain @ 0 energy storage makes it usefull for ele secondary

and primal rage is hit to hard now people gonna run the old [frenzy][rush] again

Aera · Mar 08, 2009, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

Great update but that AoR bugs me like to see 1 energy gain @ 0 energy storage makes it usefull for ele secondary

That's exactly why they did it. It'd be slightly too strong on monks don't you think?

Jeydra · Mar 08, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

@Nibbit - it means you can't use it to protect the Ghostly anymore.

@moriz - Primal still has its uses, it's a near constant speedboost after all. There aren't any other Warrior templates that give constant speedboost aside from Ntouka + Rush. You can use Primal in a dedicated split build I guess, so it isn't completely dead, and I know some Warriors who think Primal is still a good skill and would prefer it over Eviscerate.

Two days after the update I think it's pretty good and my earlier reactions were too ... shall we say overdramatic? ... but it still could've been better with nerfs to Lingering and Peace and Harmony. We'll see how the meta turns out though.

Lourens · Mar 08, 2009, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

That's exactly why they did it. It'd be slightly too strong on monks don't you think?

then they should link [channeling] to fast casting otherwise it would be to strong -.-

FoxBat · Mar 08, 2009, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@moriz - Primal still has its uses, it's a near constant speedboost after all. There aren't any other Warrior templates that give constant speedboost aside from Ntouka + Rush. You can use Primal in a dedicated split build I guess, so it isn't completely dead, and I know some Warriors who think Primal is still a good skill and would prefer it over Eviscerate.

The uptime and speed boost are identical to [Sprint].

And yes, there are people brave enough to rely on that as their frenzy cancel.

Robbert Monga · Mar 08, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

What? You don't understand why its a good thing that primal is gone?

What? Why would it be a good thing when any skills is gone? Did you like fall on your head or something?

Quote:

Palm strike is broken. But thats not to say that being able to elite - crushing - distracting strike and do another 33% odd more damage approx in 1/2 a second isn't also broken.

Regardless. Not being able to rupt a lead attack is flat out gay... as if assassins do not already dominate front line in low end arenas.
And I mean its not like that there are any skills in the game that recharge twice as fast as dstrike AND deal extra damage on interrupt... Oh wait...

Quote:

Stances do need more work.

Joe

So you agree to disagree? or just trying to stick your last word in?
No, I'm sorry, "more work" implies that there is already some good progress. But the work done is done in completely wrong direction.
What was wrong with stances on monk anyway? Oh, thats right, because leet PvPers QQed they are too pro to switch target, count till 4 and switch back... Maybe I'm just too good for this game, cause I had no major issues with killing stance monks.
What I do however have problem with is Shield Bash on monk bars, which have been broken for like ever. Conveniently that has not been addressed at all.

I mean WTF! This whole update is just so lame, random and misguided, it strikes me as impossible someone trying to defend it.

EDIT: No, ok, I admit turret ranger nerf was a good thing

loveonmymind2 · Mar 08, 2009, 03:00 PM // 15:00

the update is crap.
anet only upgrades 2 skills per 20 skills they nerf instead watching some bunch of unuseful skills that are never used in pve or pve like peace and harmony was till they updated it.
wail of doom nerf lol ok no more wail of doom necros anymore, the only thing u can run is the lingering curse cuz everything else at curses sucks.
primal rage no more primal rage wars
no more pew pew rangers with flail ok no prob about nerfing some skills but lol 2 upgrades?¿ they are just killing every skill in this game.
who gives a crap about the sin skill they updated to better regen lol.
theyve no idea about 4vs4

pah01 · Mar 08, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

What? Why would it be a good thing when any skills is gone? Did you like fall on your head or something?

Thats a different thing. There is a serious problem with any skill that gives both an IMS and IAS at the same time to a melee template. If you dont understand that then you are the one that needs to think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

Regardless. Not being able to rupt a lead attack is flat out gay... as if assassins do not already dominate front line in low end arenas.
And I mean its not like that there are any skills in the game that recharge twice as fast as dstrike AND deal extra damage on interrupt... Oh wait...

Damage compression on weapons that have higher criticals like scythes and hammers are a problem. And its not like anyone doesn't go into low end arenas without some kind of interrupt on a warrior bar.

And i have thoughts about sins too but don't have the time right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

So you agree to disagree? or just trying to stick your last word in?
No, I'm sorry, "more work" implies that there is already some good progress. But the work done is done in completely wrong direction.
What was wrong with stances on monk anyway? Oh, thats right, because leet PvPers QQed they are too pro to switch target, count till 4 and switch back... Maybe I'm just too good for this game, cause I had no major issues with killing stance monks.
What I do however have problem with is Shield Bash on monk bars, which have been broken for like ever. Conveniently that has not been addressed at all.

Forcing the spike target to use timing to prevent the spike more is a good thing. And no I have no problem switching and timing my attacks to avoid stances. Instant activation blocking isn't exactly a very health thing IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

I mean WTF! This whole update is just so lame, random and misguided, it strikes me as impossible someone trying to defend it.

EDIT: No, ok, I admit turret ranger nerf was a good thing

The stance nerf isn't that hard. It just makes them weaker.

Ima quote someone.

Weaker skills makes stronger players stand out more.

Joe

Robbert Monga · Mar 08, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

pah01
Here is you problem. You take things for granted. You don't realize that strong skills are already paid for with strong preconditions/disadvantages.
Is PR a strong skill? Yes, of course. Yet it uses up elite slot, which is normally used for damage... well, and there is this whole take double damage thing to.

Is dstrike a string skill? Obviously. Yet it has 15 seconds recharge and condition that cannot be met.

Quote:

Damage compression on weapons that have higher criticals like scythes and hammers are a problem.

Please... A chance of crit on a hammer every 15 seconds in the best case? Wow... that is so overpowered *rolleyes*
Damage compression on something like Mystic Sweep (4 seconds recharge)? Ya I can see a problem.
Distracting Strike? Hardly.

Quote:

Instant activation blocking isn't exactly a very health thing IMO.

It stops spikes. If didn't this game would be 8v8 rangers only spike fest.

Quote:

The stance nerf isn't that hard. It just makes them weaker.

See, again here is your problem. You think contentiously adjusting numbers makes things better. It doesn't.
Making a stronger skills slightly less stronger only blends it with other mediocre skills. But even between those there always will be slightly better ones, and those will be the only ones used.
That is why skills like PR good. They stand out with great effect and heavy penalty. You can win big or you can explode in second, its up to you knowing how to use it. Yet we see it nerfed.
On the other hand we have something like Lightning Reflexes or Escape, that have no precondition or penalty whatsoever AND combine TWO very powerful effects.

How does this makes sense? I can only attribute it to lack of GW gameplay experience of ANet's balancing team.

FoxBat · Mar 08, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

pah01
and there is this whole take double damage thing to.

That's held back frenzy for so long.

Snow Bunny · Mar 08, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

PR had the same issue as shadowsteps - it allowed bad warriors to do what good warriors to do. Good warriors are good because of positioning, making good use of frenzy, and attacking different targets at such times so as to pressure monks out.

With PR you could just run train on every target and voila, you are a good warrior.

The WoW nerf is a really well done nerf - I was expecting a smiter's boon but they made it viable without keeping it as strong.

Been hoping for a WoH nerf so that Blight and LoD can be forced into play, for splitting and 8v8 respectively.

pah01 · Mar 08, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

pah01
Here is you problem. You take things for granted. You don't realize that strong skills are already paid for with strong preconditions/disadvantages.
Is PR a strong skill? Yes, of course. Yet it uses up elite slot, which is normally used for damage... well, and there is this whole take double damage thing to.

I think the problem here is that you just do not get where I am coming from at all. I am approaching this from a completely different perspective entirely that you. Primal Rage was broken full stop. Double damage never kept frenzy of warrior bars so obviously that condition is nothing really. Your problem is that you do not have an understanding why it was broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

Is dstrike a string skill? Obviously. Yet it has 15 seconds recharge and condition that cannot be met.
Please... A chance of crit on a hammer every 15 seconds in the best case? Wow... that is so overpowered *rolleyes*
Damage compression on something like Mystic Sweep (4 seconds recharge)? Ya I can see a problem.
Distracting Strike? Hardly.

Its the exact same issue with the old agonizing chop and critical chop. Giving characters the ability to spike harder has to be approached carefully. Especially when its warriors your giving that to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

It stops spikes. If didn't this game would be 8v8 rangers only spike fest.

See, again here is your problem. You think contentiously adjusting numbers makes things better. It doesn't.
Making a stronger skills slightly less stronger only blends it with other mediocre skills. But even between those there always will be slightly better ones, and those will be the only ones used.
That is why skills like PR good. They stand out with great effect and heavy penalty. You can win big or you can explode in second, its up to you knowing how to use it. Yet we see it nerfed.
On the other hand we have something like Lightning Reflexes or Escape, that have no precondition or penalty whatsoever AND combine TWO very powerful effects.

How does this makes sense? I can only attribute it to lack of GW gameplay experience of ANet's balancing team.

To pressure with frenzy and rush you have to think. To pressure with primal rage you just need to press one button and cancel if you think your going to get spiked. There is skill in knowing when to cancel but thats the only thing that might be skillfull about primal rage.

Joe

Lourens · Mar 08, 2009, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I think the problem here is that you just do not get where I am coming from at all. I am approaching this from a completely different perspective entirely that you. Primal Rage was broken full stop. Double damage never kept frenzy of warrior bars so obviously that condition is nothing really. Your problem is that you do not have an understanding why it was broken.

Its the exact same issue with the old agonizing chop and critical chop. Giving characters the ability to spike harder has to be approached carefully. Especially when its warriors your giving that to.

To pressure with frenzy and rush you have to think. To pressure with primal rage you just need to press one button and cancel if you think your going to get spiked. There is skill in knowing when to cancel but thats the only thing that might be skillfull about primal rage.

Joe

[onslaught] is a good alternative for [primal rage] no double damage but it can be stripped but you can also [wild blow][wild strike][wild throw] on [primal rage]

Robbert Monga · Mar 08, 2009, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I think the problem here is that you just do not get where I am coming from at all. I am approaching this from a completely different perspective entirely that you. Primal Rage was broken full stop. Double damage never kept frenzy of warrior bars so obviously that condition is nothing really. Your problem is that you do not have an understanding why it was broken.

You are correct. I have absolutely no idea why do you think it was broken.

Quote:

Its the exact same issue with the old agonizing chop and critical chop. Giving characters the ability to spike harder has to be approached carefully. Especially when its warriors your giving that to.

I can apply exactly same logic to almost every attack skill, that does not make it true.
I am sorry, but once again, I just don't see how is 15 seconds recharge interrupt with no extra damage is overpowered. It is strong skill on hammer template (and pretty useless for sword or axe), but no more than that.

Quote:

To pressure with frenzy and rush you have to think. To pressure with primal rage you just need to press one button and cancel if you think your going to get spiked. There is skill in knowing when to cancel but thats the only thing that might be skillfull about primal rage.

Frenzy: 5 energy, 4 sec recharge.
Primal Rage (prenerf): 5 energy, 4 seconds recharge.

scruffy · Mar 08, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

STANCESi thought the stance nerf was kind of bizarre, i think they said it was for 4v4 play, but overall this update was really good.

LINGERING CURSE
im kind of worried about skills like lingering curse and pnh now but they were the small fish to fry before this update, they can be changed around once the meta settles

DSTRIKE
dstrike was too good because it could go instantly from a interupt for spells like aegis, weapon of warding, blinds to a super spike follow up, at least now the warrior has to choose what he wants, and cant be good at everything. it should add variety with some warriors bringing prot strike and some bringing interupts, or even skills like irresistable blow and rigor mortis and teleports.

WEAPON OF WARDING:
weapon of warding nerf was great, it has a good tradeoff for the strength of the skill. you cant use it in every situation but for the ones that it is available it does its job well.

ANCESTORS RAGE
the ancestors rage nerf kind of bothers me, i will have to see how it plays out if people still bring it to gvgs. theres just something about it that i cant quite explain.

they made monks able to stop the initial spike easier, but the overpowering damage/frequency of the spike is still there. eventually they wont be able to stop it regardless of how much slower it is.

basically i just dont think the nerf was significant, the skill still does the same thing it always does just a tad bit slower. the strength of rawr spike wasnt from instagibbing people it was from having a lot of damage output on a frequent basis. this a-rage nerf doesnt even affect the strongest aspects of the skill.

it makes me think they nerfed this skill as a hit on rawr spike rather than a hit on an imbalanced skill. I really think they missed the mark on this one.

IMO nerfing the recharge or making the damage not trigger at the same time as your follow up would have been more appropriate.

REND ENCHANTMENTS

i like this nerf, you can still bring it to counter heavy enchantment stacking builds, its just not reliable as a lol hes naked lets kill him skill anymore. i dont think nerfing rend was necessary after nerfing the overall spike damage that teams can do, but i'm fine with this for now and i'll have to see how the meta goes.

HIDDEN CALTROPS:

I think rits were too good all around, nerfing this skill was a good way of forcing teams to make sacrifices on their flag runners. I think this could give room for elementalists to see play as flag runners again.

overall i think this was a good update in the right direction, now that a lot of the

READ THE WIND + FLAIL

spiking with turret rangers was damage, speed and frequency. this hit reduced the damage and the speed, but the frequency is the same. Turret rangers are still viable, just not as end all be all as they were.

they could have went the other route with nerfing the 1s activation but i wont talk about that since they chose not to and im satisfied with the nerf they did make

step in the right direction, toning a lot of shit down. i want to see what happens to the meta before I say what should be next, although lingering curse seems like a good candidate for the nerf bat right now, i think people may find ways to counter them that used to not be viable.

scruffy · Mar 08, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33

You are correct. I have absolutely no idea why do you think it was broken.

the reason it was a broken skill is because you could train people in it, you cant train people in frenzy because they will just kite you and you cant catch up. it took decision making out of playing warrior because all you had to do is press primal rage and forget about it until you got spiked.

I can apply exactly same logic to almost every attack skill, that does not make it true.
I am sorry, but once again, I just don't see how is 15 seconds recharge interrupt with no extra damage is overpowered. It is strong skill on hammer template (and pretty useless for sword or axe), but no more than that.

by harder he means harder to stop, as in the damage comes in faster. dstrike was good on axe warriors, many people run it on their axe warriors. its a very versatile skill that can double as quick extra damage + deepwound trigger on spikes.

Frenzy: 5 energy, 4 sec recharge.
Primal Rage (prenerf): 5 energy, 4 seconds recharge.

the reason frenzy takes more skill to use than primal rage is because you actually have to think about swapping stances other than only when youre getting spiked. using frenzy also means you dont move faster, so you have to have better positioning to make sure youre always able to attack people(which against good opponents isn't always easy to do let me tell you)

Kaon · Mar 08, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jatt

I know right? 4 gold capes while running a Dom mesmer, 3 with Lego on mes and 1 with Jaden. We even made it to finals in the 2nd rawr-cup with me on Dom mesmer.

Thank you Kaon, for noticing our past successes and commenting on them for the General Guildwarsguru community.

Since when did Germany conquer America? Or am I wrong and there are more people outside Germany that do not posess this strange quality we call "humor."

Oh, and 3 years ago I was also in a guild with a dom mesmer, this means I know all about dom mesmers right?

Jatt · Mar 09, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Kaon, I am confused. please elaborate.

moriz · Mar 09, 2009, 01:14 AM // 01:14

euro humor.

don't ask.

X Icy X [AUST] · Mar 09, 2009, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Primal was strong yes. BUT NOW ITS ANOTHER USELESS SKILL. surely there is a blance between overpowered and totally destroyed.

and the only thing that needed to be totally destroyed was lingering. (yes wod was imba). and um what about palm strike?

Its obvious to me the update was for an exclusive handful of players not the 99 % in arenas. seriously FIX THIS BEFORE U KILL THE GAME